One major difference that I found between Linux and FreeBSD || How frequently do you install updates ?

It might "just" be a collection of third party packages "cobbled together" with the kernel - but that's not so different to FreeBSD where the project pulls in third party packages such as OpenZFS.
The big difference is that if you remove the OpenZFS import you're still left with a functional OS.

I think some Linux distro could benefit from the separation of "here is what I gave you when you installed the system" and "here's the stuff that you've done to the system post-install".
Does "minimal install", "server install" and "desktop install" constitute the "base" in this case? What if I added that desktop install after I did a minimal install? Which part is considered "base" and what is being added post-install?
 
The big difference is that if you remove the OpenZFS import you're still left with a functional OS.
Very true, the same for many (any?) Linux distros that package it. I've never tried, but does FreeBSD build and work if you remove all of /contrib ? I.e. all software being developed outside of the FreeBSD project?

Does "minimal install", "server install" and "desktop install" constitute the "base" in this case? What if I added that desktop install after I did a minimal install? Which part is considered "base" and what is being added post-install?
In my idea, that would be up to the hypothetical distro. If I build FreeBSD myself and remove some components but add an equivalent from the Ports tree, then there is still a clear separation of base and third party packages.
My guess, in this hypothetical and off-thread situation, would be that if you did a "minimal install" and later installed a desktop from the same source as "desktop install" would have used then it would still be considered base. In the same idea that I could instal FreeBSD without lib32, but could install later. However, if you installed the desktop from a different source (e.g. the equivalent of "ports") that wouldn't be part of the base, it might be newer, might not have been customised in the same way, and woudn't have been integration tested as the one provided with "base" had.

Basically, the hypothetical distro would have to set its boundaries, which would probably look more arbitrary that FreeBSD's boundaries. And they still wouldn't have the deep integration between userland and kernel. But having some easy method of saying "these things have been curated, maybe patched, to work together in a particular way" and "these things are extra, moving at a different pace to the base" would be very nice, IMO.

EDIT: I should probably add that my perspective here is very much as a home user where I appreciate a stable and somewhat slow moving OS, but like having more bleeding edge packages on top of it - both on my personal servers and desktops. I understand that "enterprisey" entities may have different views.
 
It kinda surprises me that no Linux distros have taken made concept of base/3rd-party-packages more concrete.
Every Linux distro I have used seems to have some loose concept of a "base", it's what you got when you installed the system. It might "just" be a collection of third party packages "cobbled together" with the kernel - but that's not so different to FreeBSD where the project pulls in third party packages such as OpenZFS.

I think some Linux distro could benefit from the separation of "here is what I gave you when you installed the system" and "here's the stuff that you've done to the system post-install". Of course FreeBSD has the upper hand in tying the base userland utilities to the kernel, but as a user one of the obvious big wins this separation brings to me is that I can see how I've modified the system (in terms of installed software, and configuration if I use /usr/local/etc) and with ports-mgmt/pkg I can look up what I have explicitly installed vs what has been installed as dependencies.
Gentoo and Debian, Slackware and Arch come close. But Gentoo was inspired by FreeBSD in the first place :P . Debian, Gentoo, and Arch do have 3rd party repos.
--
As for replying to the topic of this thread - I think the updating is a bit messed up in the Open Source world. If you don't pay attention to the git branch of what you're running, something will eventually break at a bad time, forcing a complete reinstall thanks to dependency hell. One reason I like FreeBSD - yeah, it's complicated to do it right, but at least FreeBSD does give you pretty complete control, and no harassment.
 
It kinda surprises me that no Linux distros have taken made concept of base/3rd-party-packages more concrete.

Don't slip: Between Linux Distributions there is not cooperation only, but much more competition.
Many Linux distris are the result of groups splitting up, sometimes even being mad at each other, aiming for completely different targets.....

One may know this graph: Linux distris

Thus weakening not Linux only but the credit in the concept of open source at all.
So far ubuntu is a brownie point in so far because it's the first open source OS at least I know that's really completely foolproof totally automated usable for not-in-computers-really-interested-users. It
looks like an exploded candy shop, nagging frequently with updates, demote the user with gibberish talk ... - anybody coming from Windows feels at home directly... ?

In my former post I forgot to mention another, very important benefit of FreeBSD:
The FreeBSD license. Most likely comparable with the MIT license. Both are practically usable licenses.
Wherelse most people talk about the GNU-license, which is actually not always the best choice for professional use. Starts with the point that there is no such thing as the GNU-License. There are many of them. And their diversity is a jungle almost as colorful as the number of Linux distris ?
 
… Many Linux distris are the result of groups splitting up, sometimes even being mad at each other, aiming for completely different targets.

Existence of different targets is natural. Madness is sometimes a lack of self-control; human nature.

… One may know this graph: Linux Distributions Timeline

I never saw that timeline before today. Interesting, thanks.

Thus weakening not Linux only but the credit in the concept of open source at all. …

If you'll prevent (or discourage) people from going their own way, with distros or whatever: it'll be less open. Less freedom.

A Wayback Machine capture of an Apple page: MkLinux: Linux for the Power Macintosh. I bookmarked <https://www.mklinux.org/> in 2010, probably during one of the periods when I tried (failed) to get a usable open source desktop environment on available hardware. From archived documentation:

… OS X is based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel, designed by Carnegie Mellon University, and later adapted to the Power Macintosh by Apple and the Open Software Foundation Research Institute (now part of Silicomp). This was known as osfmk, and was part of MkLinux (http://www.mklinux.org). Later, this and code from OSF’s commercial development efforts were incorporated into Darwin’s kernel. Throughout this evolutionary process, the Mach APIs used in OS X diverged in many ways from the original CMU Mach 3 APIs.
 
john_rambo

If you are on the latest branch you receive updates more often! ?
I don't necessarily want the latest version of every package. My main focus is security which is why I check for updates everyday and install them asap. If my FreeBSD install is secure using the stable branch I will keep using it. No need for latest branch.
 
I don't necessarily want the latest version of every package. My main focus is security which is why I check for updates everyday and install them asap. If my FreeBSD install is secure using the stable branch I will keep using it. No need for latest branch.

If your main goal is security maybe you should opt for OpenBSD.

For what I understood FreeBSD aims more for stability for that reason you have quarterly updates, if you want security having newer versions increase your security since discovered flaws are more prone to be fixed.
 
If your main goal is security maybe you should opt for OpenBSD.

For what I understood FreeBSD aims more for stability for that reason you have quarterly updates, if you want security having newer versions increase your security since discovered flaws are more prone to be fixed.
I had used OpenBSD in the past. Like FreeBSD OpenBSD too offer 2 ways for updating.
syspatch is for updating the base & pkg_add -uvi for updating userland packages. Problem is after a new version of OpenBSD is released you get absolutely zero package updates meaning suppose OpenBSD version : xyz has Firefox 97 in the repos you have no choice but to use FF 97 for the entire support period of that release of OpenBSD. The only way to get the next version of Firefox is to wait for a new version of OpenBSD.

I asked in reddit why OpenBSD don't release updates for packages. I was told that the OpenBSD project faces a severe lack of man power.

So in short OpenBSD offers a super secure base (as per their claim) with out of date, vulnerable packages including the web browser. No matter how many times you run pkg_add -uvi you don't receive any updates at all.
^^ This is my opinion about OpenBSD aftre using it for 6 months.
 
Given the pace they ruin firefox and remove useful/working features and add annoying and non-working stuff, usually you DON'T want the latest version. Even ESR is moving way too fast IMHO and is constantly breaking stuff that has been working for years.
E.g. webrender is still a steaming pile of garbage and beta-quality at best, yet they already forced it even on the 91-ESR branch and completely ruined the performance. 'gfx.webrender.force-disabled=true' and 'layers.acceleration.force-enabled=true' re-enables OpenGL which 'just works'™ on every system, yet overall performance is still _much_ worse than with 78-ESR.
If it weren't for the dependency-nightmare I'd still use the 78-ESR firefox...
 
Given the pace they ruin firefox and remove useful/working features and add annoying and non-working stuff, usually you DON'T want the latest version. Even ESR is moving way too fast IMHO and is constantly breaking stuff that has been working for years.
E.g. webrender is still a steaming pile of garbage and beta-quality at best, yet they already forced it even on the 91-ESR branch and completely ruined the performance. 'gfx.webrender.force-disabled=true' and 'layers.acceleration.force-enabled=true' re-enables OpenGL which 'just works'™ on every system, yet overall performance is still _much_ worse than with 78-ESR.
If it weren't for the dependency-nightmare I'd still use the 78-ESR firefox...
Yes but still I see no option but to update coz Mozilla pushes both feature updates and security updates through one single channel so either you update or you fall behind in terms of security.
 
Linux distris (..) groups splitting up (..) mad at each other (..) completely different targets (..) Thus weakening (..) the credit in the concept of open source
Funny ain't it?
former NetBSD developer (..) after disagreements (..) culminated (..) asked to resign (..) created a fork [OpenBSD]
I hope the existence of OpenBSD hasn't 'weakened the credit in the concept of open source'*. Heck, I'd say, it helped to popularize and strengthen the world of open source** .
--
* ? ** Like Linux.
 
If you'll prevent (or discourage) people from going their own way, with distros or whatever: it'll be less open. Less freedom.
That's not what I said, neither what I want nor what I wanted to suggest or even I'm capable of.
I just told how it is.

Fact is, individual ways increase diversity thus ensures existence by more adaptivity.
But it's also a law of nature the more branches the fewer the power per branch thus weakening each one.
Those are the two sides of the same coin.
Not bad, not good, just a law of nature.

But one of my main reasons I'v chosen FreeBSD instead of Linux is with FreeBSD there is a system of having a consistent OS by preventing uncontrollable growth.

That exactly makes the difference between many experimental Linux branches nobody really uses anymore, even died a long time ago, and the successful ones such like Suse, Debian or ubuntu. Not even the difference between Linux and all others.

This does not mean I am against uncontrollable growth or even growth at all.
Absolutely not!
We need growth, experiments and even uncontrollable growth - if this stays in limits, and not rampanting into other areas.
Without it there would be no progress.

But we also need reliable, stable systems.
Namely for the use.

You see it from the point of view from of an OS expert.
For developers of new OS, admins/roots and some enthusiasts there is a big danger to think of the OS itself would be the whole point at all.
It's not.
The OS - as the choice which one to use - is extremely important, because it provides many, many important jobs, does a buttload of work... and takes most of the responsibility - no question there.
But the OS is neither the main actor nor the director, even not the plot or especially not the movie.
The Users are, their work, and applications.
You don't need to think of a better filesystem if there is no data to be stored on.

We need both:
experimental growth and stable, reliable... - controlled - systems.
The first one for progress, the second for use.

Wildely growing, experimental OS are not a good choice for the actual daily use.
Just because for the single fact only that their future is not reliably for sure.

Especially if you are not into OS development you just want to use the computer only.
For that you need is a OS you don't need to care about much - the less, the better.
That does not mean FreeBSD should become another turnkey OS - absolutely not! Complete contrary!
(Obviously one really has to look out for not willfully being misunderstood.)

Having a mature, stable, reliable, consistent, complete... system does not necessarily mean it has to be a foolproof fully automated tunkey OS.
The point of turnkey OS or modularity is a complete other question.
Those are also just two sides of the same coin:
Either you have to stay with a preconfigurated turnkey OS or have to make efforts.
But that's completely independend of the question experimental or practical suitable.
(Of course a modular system is way better fo development, but that's also another point.)

I've chosen FreeBSD knowing that this ain't no effortless turnkey OS on the silver plate, because I wanted to learn and understand the OS I am using and found the best match of my personal compromise of reliable usage, control, self-paced configration and learning effort.
But - and that is very important to me - FreeBSD is neither a wild growing experiment with an uncertain future, nor is it aiming to become one.
It's a principled OS.
That is the base of a practically usable, ....reliable, mature,... serious, genuine, authentic... real OS.

Trying to change that may bring progress - but for other systems, because this would actually kill this one.
Series production goods are not for experimentation.
(That's why Microsoft sponsors open software projects such as Linux.)
That doesn't mean I want to prevent progress.
 
Problem is after a new version of OpenBSD is released you get absolutely zero package updates meaning suppose OpenBSD version : xyz has Firefox 97 in the repos you have no choice but to use FF 97 for the entire support period of that release of OpenBSD. The only way to get the next version of Firefox is to wait for a new version of OpenBSD.
Not exactly zero, you do get some security updates. On fixed releases it's recommended to use Firefox ESR, which is always kept up to date. OpenBSD-current has much more up to date packages (including latest Firefox), although nowhere as good as FreeBSD "latest" pkg repository. Unlike FreeBSD you can't have latest packages on a fixed release, it's either all fixed or all rolling, like in Linux world.

if you want security having newer versions increase your security since discovered flaws are more prone to be fixed
... and new flaws more prone to be introduced as well. As long as you get security updates for known vulnerabilities, newer or older versions don't make much difference in that matter.
 
bsduck
I didn't know that I was suppose to use the ESR. I wrote zero coz during the 6 months that I used OpenBSD I ran pkg_add -uvi from day 1 to the last day. Its not only Firefox but I didn't receive a single update for all the other apps that I was using like Pidgin, VLC, mpv, KeePassXC, etc.

But the base received updates using the command syspatch.
 
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