what we can do with rust is beyond what we can imagine

shkhln said:
There are far more interesting aspects to the language than California-style social activism.
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Although you wording implies some anti-activism propaganda you are completely right! Let's talk on topic:

Rust has a long term problem with newest FreeBSD kernels.
 
RoGeorge said:
Seems to me like that tweet fits each word from the definition of propaganda.
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A one-sentence definition is a bit weak, but the wording "part of an argument" points into the correct direction. To really understand what propaganda is and how it can be distinguished from simply activism, you will need a somewhat longer text. Actually, wikipedia's explanation of propaganda isn't the worst.

Whether activism is something you want to see in a software project or not, that's your choice. Just saying, refusing it because of that (and publicly talking about it) is activism as well.
 
getopt, on the other hand, keeping backwards compatibility the way FreeBSD does has a downside: It doesn't force projects interfacing directly with syscalls to move ?
 
I read the threads and "I just figured that platforms wouldn't do this." has got to be the best summary of the problem.
 
Y'all can say the same things about Tor, security/nnn ports, and the like, or even throw OpenBSD into discussion. Political activism can be done using any platform, any software. Some tools offer better protection against snooping, some tools offer better analysis capabilities to aid snooping, the point of political activism (and propaganda) is information, not the software tools used to process/move it. Bans on certain cryptography methods around the world are really attempts to control information spread. Conceptually separating information and tools can be a difficult case to make, but it's still an important distinction to be aware of.

Having said all that, I'd think that these forums are meant to be a place to discuss and understand the technical side of things. Let's keep politics out. ?
 
astyle I'm all for keeping politics out of (opensource) software projects, if possible. It might not always be possible, you have a good example here with tor, some of the reasons for its existence can be characterized as political. For something like rust, it would be possible for sure.

All I said was: Rejecting some software project because they expressed some political opinion, and publicly talking about that, is political as well. ?‍♂️
 
What's happening now is that things have always been political (choosing FreeBSD over Linux is a political choice) and now people realize it's advantageous to state desired policy up front to keep undesired policy from hijacking the project from the back.
 
msplsh said:
choosing FreeBSD over Linux is a political choice
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It was not the case for me... I simply liked the feature set of FreeBSD better. I like to think of my decision as 'Educated consumer decision', rather than a political one. Not buying LeBron-themed gym socks (and looking for high-quality alternatives) - now that is a political decision of mine.
 
But you set policy for yourself (use FreeBSD, not Linux), based on the values (features that are valued by FreeBSD) of FreeBSD.
 
Seems like political/politics is yet another fuzzy word:

Political - relating to politics
Politics - the activities of the government, members of law-making organizations, or people who try to influence the way a country is governed:
- the job of holding a position of power in the government:
- the relationships within a group or organization that allow particular people to have power over others:
Source:
dictionary.cambridge.org

political

1. relating to politics: 2. relating to politics: 3. relating to politics:
dictionary.cambridge.org dictionary.cambridge.org
dictionary.cambridge.org

politics

1. the activities of the government, members of law-making organizations, or…
dictionary.cambridge.org dictionary.cambridge.org

Let's take another dictionary:
Definition of political

1a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government
b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2 : of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3 : organized in governmental terms political units
4 : involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system political prisoners
Source:
www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of POLITICAL

of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government; of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy; of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com

-------------------

To sum it up, politics has to do with the established government, and with enforcing or combating its powers.

Not every individual choice, or any personal attitude, is aimed at the government or at its powers. Therefore not everything is political.
 
Conveniently, you left out ignored this one on "politics"

"the relationships within a group or organization that allow particular people to have power over others"

In M-W "relating to, involving, or involved in politics.." Well what does the politics entry say... "political actions, practices, or policies"

There's no divorcing the word politics from policy.
 
msplsh said:
But you set policy for yourself (use FreeBSD, not Linux), based on the values (features that are valued by FreeBSD) of FreeBSD.
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I have to quibble with this... the BSD license is different from the GNU license. FreeBSD values the rights/freedoms afforded by the BSD license. As a consumer who is after technical capabilities for personal use, I never cared if the software is covered by BSD license or GNU license. Caring about that is political, IMHO.

(Freedom to do what you want) is not the same thing as (having/not having a specific feature like ZFS, for example). Well, we have enough threads on these forums that split hairs like that. ?
 
astyle said:
I never cared if the software is covered by BSD license or GNU license.
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Software producers and distributors are the ones that have to care, not the user unless the user is psychotic passionate about licensing. An example of license selection is Linus Torvalds using GPLv2 for the Linux kernel, he chose not to adopt GPLv3, because he does not agree with the v3 license (in short the v3 license is invasive and FSF overstepped).

BSD license is simple to understand, in short the code is surrendered to others once published. BSD code simply exists with the license attached, and distribution of its derivative compiled code can be without source code. GPL says distribution must be with source code, forcing the "original" to be potentially built upon out in the open i.e. it doesn't allow the code to become hidden (if the compiled code is being published).

Most SaaS vendors take advantage of either license, they leech and barely give anything back.

I'm not advocating for either license. (has to be stated because these forums choose to misread things constantly. BSD licence, i.e. 2 clause / probably others)
 
tux2bsd said:
Software producers and distributors are the ones that have to care, not the user unless the user is psychotic passionate about licensing. An example of license selection is Linus Torvalds using GPLv2 for the Linux kernel, he chose not to adopt GPLv3, because he does not agree with the v3 license (in short the v3 license is invasive and FSF overstepped).

BSD license is simple to understand, in short the code is surrendered to others once published. BSD code simply exists with the license attached, and distribution of its derivative compiled code can be without source code. GPL says distribution must be with source code, forcing the "original" to be potentially built upon out in the open i.e. it doesn't allow the code to become hidden (if the compiled code is being published).

Most SaaS vendors take advantage of either license, they leech and barely give anything back.

I'm not advocating for either license. (has to be stated because these forums choose to misread things constantly. BSD licence, i.e. 2 clause / probably others)
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Technically speaking, www/apache24 (or any server for that matter) can be thought of as SaaS, buddy.

A political question would be would be about Office 365 running in a browser - Just how did Microsoft pull that off, considering that o365 was a pretty blatant violation of the per-processor licenses that applied to Office 2010? ?‍♂️ No way to do it without resolving internal politics to suit the new versions. ?‍?
 
getopt said:
That said with this impressive title

what we can do with rust is beyond what we can imagine​

there is in deed something I couldn't imagine:

Rust cannot cope with the FreeBSD kernel > 11.0 unless COMPAT_FREEBSD11 is set. Well GENERIC has set it for downward compatibility reasons.

But as the friends of lean and hardened custom kernel building know this may include risks one want to avoid by unsetting/removing such kernel options.

COMPAT_FREEBSD11 only works thanks to the following:
  1. Apr 7, 2017 How to deal with breaking changes on platform ? [BSDs related]
  2. Sep 17, 2021 Drop support for FreeBSD 10 from std
This is because the Rust ecosystem still depends on some FreeBSD 11 syscalls after the ino64 changes.

The timespan for having this not fixed is impressive given the mouthful "something that can, if written easily".
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And I'm sure you are working on a fix
 
tux2bsd , please cut out the personal attacks. I realize you have an admiration for FreeBSD and the work that the devs put in. If you want to point out that I got something incorrect, please collect some links to back up your point.

tux2bsd said:
These forums are such a detraction from the good work the FreeBSD developers and other contributors do.
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These forums do get visit from the Foundation devs for ideas. A couple of mine got heard, BTW.
 
astyle said:
These forums do get visit from the Foundation devs for ideas. A couple of mine got heard, BTW.
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Good for you. Funnily enough my suggestion is in there too. Joe deliberately made a post to ask on behalf of the foundation, that is very different from dozens of devs lurking to go into a coding frenzy if astyle happens to have an idea.
astyle said:
If you want to point out that I got something incorrect, please collect some links to back up your point.
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No. I have zero time for forum users, like you, that attempt to trump others using inane bullshit.
 
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