I think, at this stage, I am finally convinced that FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

Agree, except that I happen to prefer MacOS as a laptop OS. But I ran with Windows on my work laptop for about 15 years, and I wasn't terribly unhappy. And I can totally see that other people find Windows a good choice for their preferences, habits, and workflows.
I feel uncomfortable with any other OS than *BSD. I have no big requirements to an OS, I like
simple things and bare X11 is enough for me. I have the feeling that *BSD projects have
not much life expectations, for different reasons. I hope, I am wrong.
 
DOS 6.22/OPTi-930
I had an OPTi-930 sound without driver, and no internet. I tried to perfect my MASM skills to write a driver.
I failed. But I didn't dump DOS. There was no other choice though! Years later, I switched to windows 2000.

FreeBSD 6.2!/WinModem
I had a stupid modem, i.e. winmodem => No internet. I did the same, as I did with DOS: as(1), c(1).
I failed again. Solution: I bought an external US robotics 56K dial-up serial controller faxmodem.

FreeBSD/Win7/Scarlett 18i6
I used to have a hobby, playing instruments and record it with Scarlett 18i6 on Reaper/Windows.
The combination Scarlett 18i6 and Reaper wasn't FreeBSD friendly! But I didn't abandon FreeBSD.

Conclusion
Idealism => perfectionism => to give up => bad ethics!
 
I think this thread has devolved or started into "Why isn't FreeBSD like..." (which isn't allowed here) and it seems more and more we're getting threads like this every week. I'm tired of it and find them to be a waste of bandwidth. If one can't make it work the way one likes then stating so doesn't matter or mean anything or have value. Asking how to make it work has value.
 
At companies like Apple or Microsoft (or IBM or Oracle) the decision making is completely different: What do our users = customers want?
Hmm, I haven't noticed this in commercial culture for years. Today these guys "tell" the customer what they want. For example no customers are asking for Microsoft to turn their eco-system into a locked down restrictive store model. Likewise no Apple user has wanted to require a developer license just to migrate a signed binary to another machine and be able to run it.

I feel the only way a user can get close to what they want these days is almost exclusively via open-source where the developers may be busy but they aren't crooks.

Edit: I think I recall us having a discussion about this before. If so, ignore my extra noise. To be fair I think drhowarddrfine is probably right in that this thread covers a lot of previous ground!
 
Indeed it's an irony . I have never experienced proper FreeBSD desktop that i build for myself (i stuck at xinit , laugh at me) . When i as a newbie saw a potential FreeBSD have as a desktop , and this thread emerges on my sight .

Maybe i was too late to notice FreeBSD . Working saps my time and attention to learn . Now that i lost my job because of pandemic , now i have all time in the world to learn for myself . Windows has been all my desktop experience . I was about to install linux , but my intuition told me i will be better if i come here . Idk why , heck , i even already made the MX-Linux live medium . I can simply give up FreeBSD , and go the easy way . But something allures me to stay here . I have no basis , just intuition , as i am just a week old chicklings in BSD-world .

Tbh , i was thankful that a 'first true global pandemic' strikes . I finally can enjoy myself and learn . How can i not notice this OS as alternative when i was busy from work . It's really an irony .

It's just a noob's noise don't mind me .
 
Maybe I can stay on Drhowarddrfine and Kpedersen's good side by reminiscing about the old days like the old fart that I am.
I used to run Xwindows on a 386-40 with 4MB of RAM. It ran very badly. Part of the problem was swapping; part of the problem was lack of FPU, which is needed for font rendering. I fixed that by buying a 387 floating point processor, but the machine was still barely usable due to lack of RAM. So I upgraded to a 486-25 with 16MB, and it worked acceptably...
I remember being outraged, outraged! Because VMS ported to C Windows NT 3.1 didn't run well on less than 8MB. Who's got that kind of RAM?
I'm going to be that guy and point out that the 386-40 was an AMD product and did have a math co. The fastest 386 you could get from Intel was the 386DX-33 which also had a math co. You probably had an Intel 386SX-25.
There was no web browser at the time. Matter-of-fact, there were darn few web sites; ftp was still using 100x more traffic than http on the internet. This must have been 1994. The idea of playing live video on a computer was laughable; playing short music clips (.wav files) was at the edge of what was doable...
Gopher FTW! Over a 2600 modem, natch. Do you remember the phone number for that BBS that had all the good drivers for NICs? It was a life saver when a driver floppy in your carefully curated collection went bad.
The BSD license is not what holds back the usability of FreeBSD on the desktop. I think the reason is lack of investment. Building a seamless desktop/laptop system, from hardware support through user interface standards and a large stable of useful and usable applications takes an enormous amount of manpower. Hundreds or thousands or perhaps tenthousand people in engineering and engineering management. Microsoft and Apple have those people...
Don't forget Google, with Android and Chromebook as exhibits A and B. It is possible to build a user friendly Linux device.
One thing we must not forget: The vast majority of engineering that happens for Linux is done by paid staff. People who work fulltime and get a paycheck to make Linux better. Many of them work for RedHat, Suse and so on. Some are paid by the various foundations and non-profits (like the Linux Foundation). But the bulk of them work for companies such as Intel, IBM, Oracle, ... who use Linux, and need to see it function. As an example, look at the Wikipedia page for "Linux Technology Center": Already in 2006 (15 years ago), IBM had 300 people working full-time on Linux development, and already by 2000 (about 8 or 9 years after Linux was born), it had invested a billion (not million) $ into Linux improvements. Amateurs, hobbyists and enthusiasts are a tiny or irrelevant part of the Linux ecosystem...
This can't be emphasized enough. The bedtime story that Open Source is driven by amateurs, volunteers, and students hasn't been true for at least two decades. Maybe it was never true.
 
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When I worked for Silicon Graphics in the early 90s, I was told to figure out how to dial up so I could send messages back to the office rather than making phone calls. Better yet, see if I could get an internet connection--whatever that was. That same era, I was trying several times to install FreeBSD from floppies without success. In 2003, I tried the same floppies again and succeeded--probably cause I was wiser by then. Got a fresh copy of version 5.0--bought FreeBSD Unleashed--and became the giant in the industry I am today.
 
When I worked for Silicon Graphics in the early 90s, I was told to figure out how to dial up so I could send messages back to the office rather than making phone calls. Better yet, see if I could get an internet connection--whatever that was. That same era, I was trying several times to install FreeBSD from floppies without success. In 2003, I tried the same floppies again and succeeded--probably cause I was wiser by then. Got a fresh copy of version 5.0--bought FreeBSD Unleashed--and became the giant in the industry I am today.
Oh! I am still using Silicon Graphics keyboard with FreeBSD. The best keyboard I have ever seen. Donated the Indigo to Computer museum but kept the keyboard, and it is still working. I am writing this on SGI keyboard...
IMG_3119.JPG
 
Maybe I can stay on Drhowarddrfine and Kpedersen's good side by reminiscing about the old days
Haha. It is true, I really do enjoy the many snippets of history from many of you guys (ralphbsz also comes to mind)!

You had me beat, I had a 386SX-16 (up until an almost embarrassingly recent time, I think Windows XP was starting to become common). I could *just* about play Doom if the viewport was set to the size of a desktop icon. This might have been one of the slowest 32-bit processors Intel ever released.

Much of my "home" UNIX experience was from DesqView/X and DJGPP. One that I am still fairly fond of however :)
 
Triggered by the title of this tread that 'FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users'...

IMHO most, if not all operating systems aren't ready for all users. In my perspective, my mom should be able to run a desktop computer and keep it up-to-date and running without any assistance. Type a memo, print it, send some emails and order some stuff home. Nothing more. For years.

To be honest, I don't think there is an OS that facilitates that to the full extent. Those days are over, unless you want to take a new, or better old fashioned perspective.

Today every OS and almost every piece of software needs updates and updated dependencies. All the time. Take a much used and needed piece of software: your browser -- Firefox updates at least once a week. And to be honest, as an end user I don't see any change or improvement at all. It is just replacing version 85.0_1,1 with 85.0_1,2, as if version numbers got a decimal comma these days to facilitate microscopic version management. Call it agile development or whatever, but what's the use for the end user? <silence>

MacOS, Linux, Windows are just the same. The boss-box is a W10 machine -- 'The' corporate platform here in NL -- and frequent updates just break usability repeatedly (major PITA is the change of user preferences, and that is (should be) not even on an OS-level) and even the IT helpdesk is puzzled how to solve it. Linux Mint is quite OK, but runnning updates always needs extra questions and passwords on installing extra *.lib-shit, and I don't know why it bothers me when I just ask the box to update -- period. Up til now, FreeBSD is the most stable OS with frequent updates I encountered since computers are online by default. And probably there is the root cause of misery: online is a synonym to 'continuous improvement'. And it isn't. Not per se.

Remember the days of my dad's Olivetti with DOS, Norton Commander and some text editor. It went on for ages, and no one ever used the word 'update'. My Mac Classic running System 6.0.7 for ages (and still). Software was good in it's basic form, and back in the 90-ies I can't remember serious flaws on software. The flaws came when internet connection replaced the 3,5" floppy disks.

'Continuous improvement', but to what? Text editors that could calculate, draw and send emails?

GNU/screen is mocked because there is 'no active development'. That's right! But is there a need for development if the code seems bug free and functional as intended? IMHO not.

I guess the best system for desktop users is an OS that facilitates development and new things, but also facilitates a 'stand still' robust and functional environment. Without bits falling apart, without hard drives getting cluttered with obscure runtime files that eat your M- or GB and slows down your machine. An OS that I would trust to install on my mom's laptop.

And FreeBSD would be my primary choice on that matter.
 
Of course, FreeBSD its not ready for all desktop users
but its a tricky question because are many users and many levels of knowledge and skills

from the user "I dont wanna and dont know configuring and install anything" (this users give jobs to the It guys)

later,the regular user with basics skills that want to learn and try it

and the users that use every system since the 80 years
and set up a FreeBSD box with a desktop,configure everything in one hour or less

so,the original question of the post is useless to me

the title of the post can apply to any operating system
 
We have now regressed to telling anecdotes from our ... well not youth, more mid-life ...

That's because the topics of "FreeBSD is not like ...", "FreeBSD is not what I need" and "FreeBSD is not suitable for the desktop" really don't have any interesting new thing to add.

I'm going to be that guy and point out that the 386-40 was an AMD product and did have a math co.
No, the 386-40 that I used was the 32-bit data bus version, and did not have an FPU. And that was part of the problem: I had used it under DOS from about 1991 onwards (where lack of floating point didn't bother me), and by the time I needed floating point, the 386 market was getting thin. And finding a compatible 387 FPU was hard, because neither Intel nor AMD made the 387 in 40 MHz. I had to hunt for the Cyrix part, which was very rare. And as I mentioned, there was no internet. So I spend an afternoon driving around all of San Jose, Sunnyvale, Mountain View and Palo Alto (along El Camino), stopping at every computer store. Eventually, there was a person who barely spoke English in a corner store in southern Palo Alto, and when I asked for a Cyrix 387-40, he opened his desk drawer, and among the pencils there was a clearly used chip, no anti-static protection. He only wanted $20 or $40 for it (no tax, no receipt), so I took it, and it worked fine.

Gopher FTW! Over a 2600 modem, natch. Do you remember the phone number for that BBS that had all the good drivers for NICs? It was a life saver when a driver floppy in your carefully curated collection went bad.
I had a 9600 baud modem at home (courtesy of my employer, who also supplied a bank of dial-in numbers). I didn't actually use IP over it (at that point, that was still SLIP, PPP was not really available, but configuring SLIP required root access on both sides, and at my employer that was impossible). Instead I used a userspace program that allowed remote login, copying files, and tunneling X sessions (at 9600 baud!). It might have been called "term" or something like that. The performance was awful. On the other hand, I had used IBM mainframes via 300 baud acoustic couplers, and VAXes and Unix machines via 1200 and 2400 baud modems (with VT100s at home), so 9600 baud was quite pleasant.

Don't forget Google, with Android and Chromebook as exhibits A and B. It is possible to build a user friendly Linux device.
Yes, but you can't start with X windows and the standard DEs, which were written by hackers for hackers. Instead, you put a team of designers and market researchers on figuring out what users need and want. And then you have professional software engineers (instead of hackers) implement it. Same with the Mac: You can put a really good GUI on top of a FreeBSD-derived OS.
 
The BSD license is not what holds back the usability of FreeBSD on the desktop. I think the reason is lack of investment.

FreeBSD gets plenty of investment. The issue is domain specific expertise. Not many committers really understand (or are interested in understanding) graphics and design language in general. The lack of discussion on this topic in many conferences I've watched shows this.

Building a seamless desktop/laptop system, from hardware support through user interface standards and a large stable of useful and usable applications takes an enormous amount of manpower. Hundreds or thousands or perhaps tenthousand people in engineering and engineering management. Microsoft and Apple have those people, and use the profits from selling it to pay for the staff. Linux has that to a smaller extent, the best example being RedHat (which has thousands of engineers working to make Linux better).

One thing we must not forget: The vast majority of engineering that happens for Linux is done by paid staff. People who work fulltime and get a paycheck to make Linux better. Many of them work for RedHat, Suse and so on. Some are paid by the various foundations and non-profits (like the Linux Foundation). But the bulk of them work for companies such as Intel, IBM, Oracle, ... who use Linux, and need to see it function. As an example, look at the Wikipedia page for "Linux Technology Center": Already in 2006 (15 years ago), IBM had 300 people working full-time on Linux development, and already by 2000 (about 8 or 9 years after Linux was born), it had invested a billion (not million) $ into Linux improvements. Amateurs, hobbyists and enthusiasts are a tiny or irrelevant part of the Linux ecosystem.

Obviously, the situation for FreeBSD is different. How many hundreds or thousands of people get a fulltime paycheck for working on the FreeBSD desktop environment? Duh, zero.

You're preaching to the choir here. None of what I said states otherwise.
 
meine drhowarddrfine wolffnx and to all others who hold similar views, I suggest the book of Don Norman - ' The design of everyday things', I changed my view of usability after reading this. Also like one of you observed, a tool/tech should ideally be easy to use and maintain, ofc, I cannot expect 100% of users to use something, practically the Pareto principle should get satisfied(meaning most of the users can use it).

Btw, I am detailing how a expected thing - suspension to work(when your devices have supported drivers), whether we like it or not, the dynamics of the market will force comparison with other OSs and competition, any platform needs sizeable users to thrive(not survive), therefore, if this is wrong to expect then I don't think FreeBSD will ever gain any meaningful traction like other OS, cuz for the end user(average user) it won't matter whether it is Apache/BSD/GPL/EULA, as long it gets the job done.
 
[...] and to all others who hold similar views, I suggest the book of Don Norman - ' The design of everyday things'
Why? I've read that. There's lots of science-talk in book, but I only found this: °C=(°F-21)*5/9. I think he's learnt that from the 2nd example of K&R 2nd.
No rigorous analysis, just random thoughts. Very psychological, very typical!
 
I'm sure that, if this was a forum about MAC trucks, people would be complaining about how inconvenient and hard to use it is for driving the kids to their soccer games and that if MAC wants their trucks to be more popular they need to install better radios, air conditioning, seats, and more. Cause Chevy and Ford and Honda have all those so MAC must have them, too!
 
I'm sure that, if this was a forum about MAC trucks, people would be complaining about how inconvenient and hard to use it is for driving the kids to their soccer games and that if MAC wants their trucks to be more popular they need to install better radios, air conditioning, seats, and more. Cause Chevy and Ford and Honda have all those so MAC must have them, too!

But the Mack Truck would still be a Mack Truck.. one would assume it's impractical to use a Mack Truck as a passenger car vehicle. Convenience and practicality aren't the same thing.
 
I agree, the analogy is a little off. FreeBSD may not be at its core a desktop users' OS, but the final judgement is to the user. Using it as a desktop OS is not as absurd as using an 18-wheeler as a family car. Certainly there are some petty gripes that come up, but there are also legitimate suggestions for improvement and growth of the community.
 
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