Other BSD license and programming language does it matter

Yeah, you can, just do your homework on the vehicle capacity and where it's available
People (customers) will ASK for a Jeep. Just like they will ASK for a "Xerox machine", Kleenex, Band-Aid, etc. In the Pentium era, you didn't go looking for a "586" -- unless you were deliberately trying to say "I don't want the Intel product".

There is marketing value in being known as THE standard, esle people wouldn't defend their brands so vigorously.
 
Note that there are other IP protections that also are enforceable
Intel copyrighted the opcodes in their assembly language.
Every piece of significant and original amount of written down software code that has been published or legally accepted proof of its origin as being unpublished is copyrighted, maybe the license of zero copyright to public domain is an exception. Other than that exception, license is different, to allow use of that copyrighted work.
Intel obviously wanted to protect it's "brand".

You can't buy a "Jeep like vehicle" without mentioning the word "Jeep" (the most valued automotive "brand")
That's a trademark, which even though "Jeep" started off as or coming from a generic term, the name and general shape of the vehicle front grill have been trademarked now. Same with Xerox or Cleenex, yet those names are used in common language. The FreeBSD name, that of many other operating systems, license foundations, software organizations, scripting languages and (strictly) programming languages have been trademarked, yet many of their offerings are free to use, through their licenses.

Java is licensed by Oracle. Yes, the whole language. Yes, Oracle's attempts at license enforcement are met with resistance - I've been on practically the front row on the sidelines of that. Even big companies are looking at moving away from Java because of that licensing mess.
I believe that's by the CDDL, which is actually a good license. Unless one looks into it, they wouldn't know that, because the GPL community bashes it and says it's bad. They get the word. Its only major inconvenience is that it's incompatible with CDDL. CDDL was intended to be the anti-overly-viral, at the time anti-GPL compatible license. In my opinion, that's great, because GPL is too restrictive by not allowing free use with non-GPL libraries through dynamic linking. LGPL is a whole lot better, but is still with flaws. I've written more about this on that thread astyle has linked. MPL has to jump through hoops to make it protected from that, and at the same time allow compatibility with GPL.
A little while ago, I made a thread about licensing: Thread licensing-rant-debate-thread.90051. It explores the different licenses, and encourages discussion about which license is appropriate under which circumstances and why.
 
To those citing just ...
I'd say a language can't come with a license.
... ignoring the immediate next sentence what I mean with "language" here ....
By language, I mean any "encoding concept" used to describe and communicate things...
... plus the immediate next paragraph explaining that a language specification is of course subject to copyright ...
Looking at programming languages, which are formal languages, there can (IMHO: should) be a formal specification. That's a piece of work subject to copyright, so there could be a license for its usage. It's implausible such a license could ever restrict what you're allowed to create yourself using the knowledge you obtained from reading this specification document. After all, it would be very hard to prove you didn't obtain that knowledge without even touching the spec, e.g. by just reading other things written in that language.

Honestly, I don't get what you think your point is then? Pretty much pointless I would say.

Of course, the license terms of a language specification (or of an implementation if that is what actually specifies the language) can disallow any other implementations of that same language. That wasn't relevant to this thread though, the question was about effects on software written in that language. 🙄
 
Intel copyrighted the opcodes in their assembly language. So, while you can still generate a binary image to execute on said processors, you would have to create a NEW (but equivalent) LANGUAGE to do so.
This is not true. It is not "you would have to create a NEW (but equivalent) LANGUAGE to do so". YOU have to create different opcodes if you design new CPU. Or maybe I have used Intel opcodes (as programmer) in violation of their copyright? Every programmer has to develop his own x86 assembler with different opcodes and then can start programming... All magazines publishing ASM opcodes are in violation and they did not know it.

Note that we ended up with Pentium (instead of "586") for similar reasons.
This "ended up" because of AMD 486 and Cyrix 486. It is not possible to get trademark for number like 586 and this "ended up" in Pentium. Why you think this is wrong or maybe unfair?
 
Every piece of significant and original amount of written down software code that has been published or legally accepted proof of its origin as being unpublished is copyrighted, maybe the license of zero copyright to public domain is an exception. Other than that exception, license is different, to allow use of that copyrighted work.
Anything you write (even unpublished), "play" (as in music) that is "affixed to a tangible medium" contains an implicit copyright. Explicitly claiming one isn't required. However, it's presence avoids an infringer claiming they didn't know of the copyright OR the name of the copyright HOLDER. In the US, you can gain additional protection by registering a copyright.

It's easy to avoid accidental copyright infringement as it is unlikely that you will create something of significant size (a page?) that is a verbatim copy of some other work.

This is not true for things like patent infringement where you may unknowingly infringe an existing patent; ignorance of its existence doesn't give you the ability to continue to infringe.

As software can be patented, one has to be particularly careful when creating an "original work" that it doesn't, BY CHANCE, infringe on a patent that has already been granted. I, for example, require all of my clients to "hold me harmless" from such claims on any work I have done for them. Otherwise, the cost of my performing a particular task would dramatically increase (which woul dbe passed on to them) if I had to research every algorithm that I implement -- or circuit subsystem -- just to ensure it isn't infringing on another existing patent.

And, of course, I can't be held accountable if I stumble on someone's trade secret of my own initiative -- that being the problem with using trade secrets as a means of protecting IP.
maybe the license of zero copyright to public domain is an exception
There are specific steps that the creator of an original (copyrighted) work must undertake to place HIS (her) material in the public domain (barring the expiration and nonrenewal of copyright). Many folks want to think that something is public domain without legal proof -- the whole notion of "abandonware".
 
It is not "you would have to create a NEW (but equivalent) LANGUAGE to do so".
The opcodes (instruction mnemonics) in their assembly language are copyrighted. If you implement a work-alike processor with the exact same opcode bindings, you can't use the same mnemonics for those instructions.

E.g., "LDA (foo)" became "LD A,(foo)" for the Z80. "SHLD" became "LD (address),HL". "LXI foo" became "LD HL,foo". Same operations, different mnemonics.

The value this has is that one can't take an assembly language program (common in that era) and "assemble" it using another tool -- because that tool will be expecting other mnemonics.
YOU have to create different opcodes if you design new CPU
If you design another CPU, then you create mnemonics that are appropriate for that CPU. And, copyright them (if you think someone may try to create a work-alike clone of your products). E.g., the first CPU that I designed included an instruction "SYNC <value>" that acted as a rendezvous in a multiprocessor application.

Intel used "PUSH" and "POP", Motogorilla used "PUSH" and "PULL".

Why you think this is wrong or maybe unfair?
There is nothing "unfair" or "wrong" with Intel deciding to call their "486 successor" Pentium. They did it to differentiate themselves in a market where customers (end users) were increasingly talking about CPUs -- "I've got a 286", "Ha! I've got a 386!". The conversation then becomes "I've got a 486", "Ha! I've got a PENTIUM!" The Pentium being an Intel property, not a "K586".
 
Imagine having to use The C Corporation's compiler!
In some ways I wish there was a "C Corporation" which could have defended against Microsoft misusing C# and a name for their (originally COOL) Java clone. This name will continue to confuse amateurs for decades. Likewise Microsoft even stole the C++ logo and repurposed it, causing even more intentional confusion to push the platform.
 
Anything you write (even unpublished), "play" (as in music) that is "affixed to a tangible medium" contains an implicit copyright.
That's why I added, unpublished, which can be legally proven. So, it's along those lines. That's correct, though.

Also, you've mentioned other types of protection. patents are permitted and addressed by a few opensource licenses. Apache and CDDL1.1 cover that. MIT, BSD and LGPL2 don't have patent clauses. They say, copyright of a work which makes an idea obvious which would be based off it as it, can't be patented due to that copyright is implicit to all. Apache and CDDL.1.1 go an extra step to discourage patent infringement of their protected software. These all have the same basic protections as a copyright which makes an idea obvious, further can't or isn't supposed to be patented. CDDL.1.1 and Apache 2.0 don't really have additional solid protections over those other licenses, except to discourage and revoke use of anyone who tries to infringe.

There's also a lot of patent trolling, which some may be difficult to believe. For instance, a charity in Florida wasn't allowed to use a printer for their work. Though this sounds bogus, it might be true. Someone claimed copyright of technology which didn't belong to them, and the patent office spends 40 minutes on each patent, and they let stuff like that slip up. In the software world, there's a movement to do away with all software patents. But if something is made obvious from any copyright, it prevents a patent to be made on that. As an example before, this doesn't always work as is intended. Also, the implicit protection of copyright to prevent patents. There's a rule or something like this in copyrights, thus they believe that a BSD license is enough.

AFAIK, trade secrets may not have the same protections as patents and copyrights, but IMO, it's like, hope the competitor doesn't come up with something close enough on their own. Also, to prove someone took that IP. A trade secret may be difficult to prove, bc it relies on being a trade secret, unless you're a major company that someone took a recipe from its safe.

The point is that the license is independent a separate layer of than the copyright or patent, and it allows others to use that code while protecting their own software. They're different layers, and the opensource license is permission of terms for use and contributions.

I could copyright and/or patent something, then later on, decide to slap an opensource license [such as CDDL1.1, Apache or MPL] on it which allows use of those patents and copyrights, while protecting my work.
 
There is nothing "unfair" or "wrong" with Intel deciding to call their "486 successor" Pentium. They did it to differentiate themselves in a market where customers (end users) were increasingly talking about CPUs -- "I've got a 286", "Ha! I've got a 386!". The conversation then becomes "I've got a 486", "Ha! I've got a PENTIUM!" The Pentium being an Intel property, not a "K586".
It is not "I've got a Pentium". It is investment of Intel in design and advertisements for 80486 and then competitors say "We also sell 80486". With Pentium this is not possible.
 
Don Y : There's kind of a reason why I posted the link to the Thread licensing-rant-debate-thread.90051. It's a place to discuss how licenses are even supposed to work, share anecdotes of ridiculous pettiness around the licenses, and hopefully educate the public at large. The way I see it, licenses are a reaction to the unsustainable and untenable situation created by patents.

Even Microsoft could not exactly get a patent on its Windows OS - just the GUI portion of it.

And boy, you're barging in like a know-it-all:
(post #55)... :rolleyes:

I'm not referring to that - I'm referring to use of Java as a tool to write in-house software. Oracle is basically fighting court battles to avoid having Java share the fate of Fortran and Delphi and COBOL. Because of those fights that Oracle picks with others, people are deciding to go with a different toolset just to avoid having an expensive fight with Oracle on their hands.

Oracle: "Oh, you use Java? OK, let's go to court, and blow a few million bucks to feed our lawyers, and to make sure you guys still use Java - with an understanding that the decision-making on this matter belongs to Oracle, not you."
 
Anything you write (even unpublished), "play" (as in music) that is "affixed to a tangible medium" contains an implicit copyright. Explicitly claiming one isn't required.
That's actually correct. I wrote it in my terms, and that unpublished has to be proven in order to prove that copyright for any protection or claim. What I wrote wasn't wrong either.

Though branding, and the differences of trademarks, copyright, trade secrets and patents, we should be beyond that here, and past that introductory stage of what they are, unless it has to do with licenses. It's important to distinguish that the license is a different layer to a few of those, and it works in conjunction with the copyright and/or patent, to grant permissions for use and protections for use. A license's use often doesn't run against its backers trademarks either, as they promote its copyright's/patent's use.

And boy, you're barging in like a know-it-all:
So, I didn't take it that way, even if I have seen an argumentative stance before. It's around the terms of the US Copyright Office. I put it in my words, I know that which he wrote though. Anyone who's read from there knows. I don't need to argue about copyrights, except to say, that license is a different layer than copyrights or patents.


Also, the license discussion can partially carry on here. Over there would be for what one believes is the ultimate type or acceptable types of licenses to use, or pros and cons and such. I made my case there for (IMO) which types of licenses are better, or which need to come into existence. And some limits on patent clauses, which they discourage, rather than add additional protection which are already inherent to basic licenses which don't have patent clauses. Which, I prefer patent clauses anyway, because it's something in addition to discourage or revoke for misuse. At this time, I don't have anything substantive to really to add to that discussion. That type of discussion and the limits or issues with GPL, benefits of Apache 2.0, benefits of CDDL1.1, pros of MPL2.0 or why LGPL may be ok, needs a look beyond the FreeBSD/BSD world.

The way I see it, licenses are a reaction to the unsustainable and untenable situation created by patents.
I don't see it like that, at least originally, licenses were for copyright use, and while for protection from patents, its origin centered on permitting use rather than from patent abuse. Partially it is for protection from patent abuse and other patent concerns. The copyright protected from patenting based on ideas obvious or originating from a copyrighted code. License evolution yes, licenses became a reaction to that. Though it's about protections of copyright while allowing use in general. It's later licenses, which addressed patents.
 
I'm not referring to that - I'm referring to use of Java as a tool to write in-house software. Oracle is basically fighting court battles to avoid having Java share the fate of Fortran and Delphi and COBOL. Because of those fights that Oracle picks with others, people are deciding to go with a different toolset just to avoid having an expensive fight with Oracle on their hands.

Oracle: "Oh, you use Java? OK, let's go to court, and blow a few million bucks to feed our lawyers, and to make sure you guys still use Java - with an understanding that the decision-making on this matter belongs to Oracle, not you."
That has certainly not been my experience. I've had a long career as a Java programmer, and none of my employers every heard from Oracle. It's certainly not the case at the large company I work at now, where we use Java for most things.
 
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