Keyboard Odyssey - The Impossible Search for Perfection

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Deleted member 43773

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The idea of this thread is
to help anybody still not quite satisfied with his current keyboard
on his quest for the perfect kb.
Or at least a better one.

What I like to see here is any keyboad, or manufacturer,
offering something new, not listed here yet so far, best revolutionary, even exotic.

Focal point shall be technology, particulary key-technologies,
"What can it do, what others don't" special applications, etc.
and your personal experiences and impressions (pro and cons.)

Welcome are also posts like:
"It's not a classical mechanical kb, but [advantage(s)], [special purpose(s)]"

This may become a long thread,
so avoid redundancy.
What I don't want
is a parade of [[colorful] illuminated] [gaming] kb all containing Cherry's MX switches.
This would produce dozens of posts, but nothing new.

And of course, they must be FreeBSD compatible.

The Motto:
"The key is the key."

.....


The value of a good keyboard does not need to be discussed here.
But the term 'good' may need a definition.
Here I give you mine,
as a suggested proposal,
ready to be extended,
open for exceptions.
definitive not a dogma.

Must,
in that priority:

1. Each and every single key must not cant, not caught, nor being hit without being actually pressed.
Never.
(Just to be complete. Unless you get a warranty case, or a really crappy one, this ain't not a
real issue.)

2. Standard layouts have to be available. All keys have be grouped, and ordered as standard.
Other layouts are extra.
This includes overall standard sizes for the normal common daily desktop kb.

3. The tactile feedback must be very good, at best perfect.
You clearly know for sure without looking at the screen by the feel alone if you hit the key, or not,
or released it.

4. The feeling has to be the very same for every single key.
Even a single key needed to be pressed slightly harder, or is more sensitive as the others
(>5% difference) is unacceptable.
Exceptions are, or even desirable for very special keys like hibernation, media, or
settings.

5. The feeling has to be as soft and smooth as possible, as long as rule 2 is fulfilled.

6. The force and the way the key need to be pressed shall be as small and short as possible, as
long a rule 2 is fulfilled.

7. The keyboard shall be robust and have a long lifespan.
Keys milked to death with less than 1 M strikes are unacceptable.

8. Stable stand.
The keyboard must not move, nor its legs collapse while typing.
(Can easily fixed with some rubber tape, or adhesive. But that's not the way it should be.)

9. If wireless, exchangeable standard batteries.
No manufacture's own special battery pack, no built-in battery (lithium).
At most 3x AA or 4x AAA cells.
One battery charge has to last at least 4 months.

Nice to have:

- choice of different layouts
Of course languages, but I'm talking special keys:
with or without Windows-/Apple-/Raspberry-/XYZ-, media-, or fiddle-faddle

- choice of additonal features (not to have any of those)
cardreader, fingerprint scanner, ... touchpad (don't need it, don't want it)

- choice of connection (USB, PS/2 [preferred]; wire [preferred], wireless)

- resistent to spray water, dust, and dirt (hair, crumbs), easy to dry and clean (able to
disassemble and reassemble with common standard tools).

- double markings (e.g. german and US)
I don't know if such even exists.
If anybody knows one, please tell me.

...............

The Gold Standard shall be IBM's mechanical PCs and XTs Keyboards from the 1980s,
particulary the famous Model M
Technology: mechanical, buckling spring

1681718774252.png


Advantages:
  • almost perfect tactile feeling
  • robust (unless beer or tea is poured over ?)
  • because of exchangeable caps the keys are easy to clean
Disadvantages:
  • very noisy
  • only available used, and by luck at high prices, because not in production anymore for over ~30y
  • hard, even impossible to repair
Sidetrack:
unicomp has the rights and keep on producing those:

1681720028194.png



Advantages:
  • Model M still available as new kb
  • many layouts and variations available
  • available without Windows keys
  • USB or PS/2 available
Disadvantages:
  • not exactly the quality anymore IBM's originals had.
  • high shipping costs outside USA
Good Alternatives:
Very popular, because of being very good,
are the MX switches Cherry not only offers in several of their own models,
but provide them, so many other manufacturers may build own kbs with them.

I used the MX Board 1.0:
1681720395785.png

1681720707024.png


and was not satisfied.

Advantage
  • nice tactile feeling by the MX switches
Disadvantages:
  • because of the LED is not centered but above the plunger, only the upper half of the keys are lighted. For that all double used keys (1...0, , . - #+ etc.) are labled upside down. For anybody using a non marked keyboard this may not an issue, but to me it was very annoying.
  • The lighting can only be turned off (see not much really anymore), or chosen in 8(?) steps between way too bright and solarium.
  • if the lighting is on, the second marking cannot be seen properly anymore.
  • key caps fall off too easily
  • legs collaps too easy.
An even better tactile feeling than with the MX I had with Cherry's ML switches.
1681721380354.png

Disadvantage:
  • only available in Cherry's G84-4100 (as far as I found out)
Nice kb, by tactile feeling. But only compact with weird order of del-, ins-, PgUp-.... keys.
Does anybody knew a real kb containing ML switches?
Are those even still in production?
 
At the moment I'm using a Cherry KC 6000 SLIM
1681721806530.png

Very nice kb.
Scissors switches.
A combination of rubber dome and mechanical keys.
Not as perfect tactile feeling as ML switches,
but still very nice.
And at a reasonable price.

I'm pretty satisfied at the moment.

But still looking for perfection.
:cool:
 
Once upon a time I had one of these. No idea where it is now, the office moved when I was on vacation and the boss had an eye for this. Having programmable keys without the need for a macro recorder in the OS can be great.
 
Good source! I'll take that into account once my G15 wears out.
 
I don't have enough data points to make meaningful comparisons, but I have a "Ducky One" with Cherry Blue MX switches, of which I am very fond. It's loud, but there is nobody else in my office to annoy.

The P/N is DKON1887-CUSPDZHBS , but I think it's been discontinued.
 
gpw928 said:
The P/N is DKON1887-CUSPDZHBS
Click to expand...
nice design.
gpw928 said:
Blue MX switches, [...] It's loud, but there is nobody else in my office.
Click to expand...
If you already find Cherry's MX loud, never try a IBM's Model M ? ?

....

Cherry's MX switches are great.
Really!
No question there.

But I find it a bit redundant to get a parade of MX keyboards,
because there are quite some.
It's not that hard to find, and chose a MX keyboard,
becasue nearly all the good ones use them.

The idea was to collect some other keyboards/technologies
additionally to MX, to expand the choices.
(I know it's not that easy.
I'm already looking myself for quite a while [decades] for keyboards :cool:)
 
I had a Ducky. Great keyboard usage wise. But it broke, their service wanted $60 in advance before even answering questions and in the end they never sent me an RMA number. So I switched to WASD.
 
I have to admit, I don't really understand this thread. To me, a keyboard really doesn't need any "ideas". All it needs is mechanics that "feel natural" while typing. For me this sorts out two "ideas" from the very beginning: micro-switches (this "click" in the middle of the travel feels unnatural) and "chiclet" (hey, I need to feel *some* travel).

I really liked the Cherry RS-6000. Nowadays, I have a stack of super-cheap Logitech K120. They "feel" the same. They're just much less durable, so I need a stack of them :rolleyes:
 
zirias@ said:
Logitech K120
Click to expand...
Well, if this feels the same to you, then of course you don't have any idea what this thread is about.
I have one of those in my not-used-anymore pile.
To me, besides a very old and very cheap HP, the K120 is a horror ?

But it's good for you!
No probs with keyboards.
Free choice.
 
I hate all this keyboard fetishism mostly because IMO they don't care one iota about ergonomics. Always colors, keycaps and how clicky/noisy they are. I use an adjustable split and tented keyboard and I guess I'm just jealous that people pour all their energy into seemingly useless crap.
 
Profighost said:
Well, if this feels the same to you, then of course you don't have any idea what this thread is about.
Click to expand...
I was talking specifically about "ideas", really don't know where keyboards would need them. The last one I observed was this "chiclet" nonsense. Might make sense in a laptop to save space, and then it's a compromise. I really don't get why people would ever use that crap on a desktop, where a "real" keyboard can be used instead.

Regarding the K120, a brand new one will have the same mechanical characteristics as my beloved old Cherry. The drawback is, these super cheap things wear quickly :(
 
msplsh said:
I hate all this keyboard fetishism mostly because IMO they don't care one iota about ergonomics. Always colors, keycaps and how clicky/noisy they are. I use an adjustable split and tented keyboard and I guess I'm just jealous that people pour all their energy into seemingly useless crap.
Click to expand...
You and me both.
THERE ARE ergonomic ones.
Many.
That's the core point:
Focus on ergonomics, not colorful flashing fiddle-faddle.
Also to share opinions and definitions, what ergonomics in detail are.
Some don't care,
for others, like me, the feeling of keys pressed is as important as how the hands lie.
 
zirias@ said:
I was talking
Click to expand...
I thought I got you.
With "ideas" I mean e.g. other key technologies, such as Alain just mentioned.
If you don't feel no difference, then we don't share the same issues (again, good for you.)
You may look for a more robust one then, maybe spending 60€ on a "better" kb instead of using 4 for 20€.
 
msplsh said:
keyboard fetishism
Click to expand...
That was well put! ?

I personally don't really care which keyboard I use, as long as what I type actually shows up on the screen, and shift/caps lock/alt/tab/ctrl/esc/del/backspace/enter keys work correctly.

Most cheap brand-new USB keyboards fit the bill, and don't get in the way of using FreeBSD (or any other OS, for that matter).

I probably wouldn't want to use a keyboard that requires a lot of work to just set up. Why would I want to put in all that effort when a brand-new, no-name, cheap USB keyboard does the job adequately, and requires virtually no fuss to set up, just plug in and type! ?

Yeah, there are gamers that like their $200 backlit keyboards in all colors of rainbow, and are in fact touchscreen (for ease of switching between layouts and languages).

Dammit, everybody wants a keyboard from Ghost In The Shell:
1681741937752.png
 
Hm, guess that's the sort of thread I shouldn't have posted to in the first place ?

Yeah, largely agree with astyle here. Although, thinking about it again, MANY years from now there was an idea I found quite interesting: keycaps with (OLED) displays. They could change according to the keymap you chose. I admit I just wish I could read/write arabic, japanese, chinese, whatever (at least I know most of the cyrillic letters ....), but then it would be a really useful feature :cool:. Still, never heard about it any more....
 
as long as the bottom left key is control (not Fn) and it has full size cursor keys Im ok with about any keyboard.
i don't care about the layout, i only use US layout
i prefer a tall Enter key, not a wide one

i bought a logitech pop keys kbd (more as a joke) but it's kind of cool
you can switch the host by pressing a key and have it connected to up to 3 hosts
 
logitech K845 with the mechanical cherry keys. heavy duty aluminum top, very much like the old IBM in feel.
One thing I've learned is a good keyboard (good for you) may cost a lot up front, but if it saves your wrists and fingers over the long it, it's cheap. Like a good chair.
That's why I prefer desktops: laptop keyboards are too cramped, wrong angle, the touch pad seems to magically sense my wrist and move the mouse, so wireless external keyboard and mouse combo on a laptop for me.
 
Profighost said:
definitions, what ergonomics in detail are
Click to expand...
* Keyboard needs to split in the middle to minimize deviation
* Keyboard needs to have palm rests to minimize extension when resting
* Keyboard needs to "tent", which is to raise up from the split and slope down to the edges, to minimize pronation

deviation, extension, and pronation of your wrist and arms are all ergonomic technical terms you can google

Profighost said:
THERE ARE ergonomic ones.
Click to expand...
Uh, well, sure there are. I'm using one. It just doesn't have cherry-whatever switches, removable keycaps, nKRO, QMK software, LEDs, or otherwise look like it's from Cyperpunk 2077.
 
zirias@ said:
MANY years from now there was an idea I found quite interesting: keycaps with (OLED) displays
Click to expand...
Art Lebedev Optimus. Took forever to deliver anything, ridiculously expensive, apparently didn't work great, not taking orders anymore.

The Elgato Stream Deck is a modern interpretation of what people actually found useful. They had the Mini Three which was like this but it was also hard to get and didn't work that well.
 
msplsh said:
* Keyboard needs to split in the middle to minimize deviation
* Keyboard needs to have palm rests to minimize extension when resting
* Keyboard needs to "tent", which is to raise up from the split and slope down to the edges, to minimize pronation

deviation, extension, and pronation of your wrist and arms are all ergonomic technical terms you can google
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can't do that. I have strong muscle memory. If I were to get used to an ergonomic keyboard like that on my desktop then I could not work on my laptop without strong disuption.

I worked in a company where lots of people were using the Kinesis keyboards. Very high quality, great key switches and all. But I couldn't master the switch between that and "enforced regular" keyboards such as laptops.

If on the other hand you want such a keyboard I recommend you check out Kinesis.
 
It's easier to come to Kinesis slowly. You can configure their keyboards to be (almost) normal and just adjust them to where your hands want to be. I went from an M-style to adding a rest with a new keyboard, then moved to split, then adjustable split, then got one with tenting that I gradually cranked up to my liking. I don't think I even had the tenting brackets installed for the first year or so.

I don't have a problem going back to standard laptop because of 1) touch typing and 2) typing on the laptop too long is an indicator that I'm doing something wrong. I should be setting up shop somewhere, either dragging the keyboard with me or just not being "out" and "working" that long and instead go "in." I'll usually realize some other ergo problem with the seating and desk first.
 
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